Non-Coercive Parenting Part 3: Anarchist Parents
I wanted to share a short interview with China Martens that Jakie Arsenuk of The F-Files did after China’s book The Future Generation: A Zine-Book for Subculture Parents, Kids, Friends and Others was published.
This interview provides some insight into Anarchist Parenting and how not only is parenting a struggle, but that being a parent in the subculture and trying to do the right thing and treat your child like a human with respect is even more of a struggle in our oppressive world.
It also mentions how society’s and parents’ treatment of children and it’s oppressive nature is mirrored in other areas in our life, such as the treatment of people of color by those with fair skin and how women are oppressed by a male dominated society. Children (of all ethnicities and gender) are really victims too and deserve be included in our daily lives (including the politics thereof), treated with respect and have their autonomy supported.
Great blog…thanks for sharing!
Comment by Preschool Punk — May 16, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
Thanks and FYI I rather enjoy your blog!
Comment by michele james-parham — May 16, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
Thank you for bringing the interview. As an Anarchist, and a parent, I can’t tell you how much I disagree with the principles and ideas expressed by China.
We don’t create a hierarchy in our own families to control our children, we don’t even create a hierarchy - discipline is not a hierarchy, nor is it authoritarian - we do it to give them to skills they’ll need as a self reliant, independent, and personally responsible adults.
Children are CHILDREN they are not adults. Parents are adults, with experience, mental capabilities that children do not possess, parents are not intended to be the kid’s “friends”. Nothing bothers me more than that, and her opinion’s are not only wishy-washy, but they are part of the problem in our society, right now, as we speak. Her child is 20 years old…she is raising her child n a manner that has created the need for MORE laws in our society than we’ve ever needed before.
Sorry for the long comment, but nothing pisses me off more than a parent expressing the need to be a child’s friend because if you’re not, you’re some sort of ageist, authoritarian dictator. It’s not true. You can accomplish all the goals she talks about and then some by using structured, proper discipline.
Comment by Anok — May 17, 2008 @ 10:09 pm
Anok- I’d be interested to know what your ideas of “structured, proper discipline” are. What has China done in raising her child that has made a need for more laws? I am rather confused by your comments, especially since they are coming from an Anarchist. I’d like to hear more of your side so that maybe I can better understand where you are coming from.
I happen to be in a place where I find China’s thoughts and experiences liberating for myself and inspiring in many ways. I have not and probably will not make many of the choices she made, but I am not living her life either.
Comment by michele james-parham — May 18, 2008 @ 7:35 pm
In my world, discipline is not a matter of totalitarian control over a child. Proper structure and discipline is a combination of useful, and beneficial structuring (such as sleep schedules, eating schedules or routine) and teaching methods that both teach behavior that will enable the child to grow into an adult that neither needs laws nor rules to define their character, or behaviors.
Setting up house rules - as I call it (or as Baukanin calls natural laws) for the purpose of safety, and for he purpose of running a mutually beneficial tribe (or family) is essential to raising a happy healthy child.
Perhaps I should read more of what China has to say on the matter, before to jumping to any conclusions, however my knee jerk reaction to her interview is that not enforcing or teaching a child schedules, structure, discipline, etc…are creating the kind of adults that look to authority figures for guidance, rather than relying on their own self reliance. Kids aren’t born with a knack for true self reliance - they are taught that.
China had said something along the lines of authority over children is a bad thing (forgive the poor memory, I’m paraphrasing!). But as parents, we are automatically given authority over children - there is no escaping the biological fact of that matter. Whether you choose to be a stalwart disciplinarian or a freedom no rules parent - you have chosen the life that your child will lead, which is you using your authority, over your child. In any case, authority of a child by a parent is a legitimate (and unavoidable) position.
When your child runs into traffic, and you grab them by the arm and physically stop them, you have just exercised total authority over that child. However, the alternative is unthinkable, and thus legitimizes the authority you exerted because of the sheer fact that a child has little comprehension of the actual ramifications of running into traffic.
Not all authority is bad, unnecessary, or illegitimate. Not even to Anarchists.
In a tribal setting, what we do affects the others, and in order to live successfully one must establish that there are beneficial, and legitimate types of rules and/or authority. Teaching this to youngsters so that they can learn to grow and contribute to their tribe (rather than harm their tribe) is essential for survival, and even MORE so for the survival of an Anarchist tribe.
I actually wrote a whole post about this - before I stumbled over here…I think I explain it better there
To sum up though - exercising authority over a child by using discipline and structure does not have to equal oppressive parenting. Only parents who micro manage their children to the point of stifling the child’s ability to create, indulge, or think on their own do that. (And they are out there - no doubt!) But creating a structure, with parameters (based on the individual child’s needs) and discipline (remembering that it means “to teach” not to punish) actually creates an environment that stimulates creativity and free thinking, rather than stifling it.
Yeesh I’m brevity challenged! By the way - I do like your blog, even if i seem argumentative. It’s nice to converse with other Anarchist parents
Comment by Anok — May 19, 2008 @ 9:14 am
no, not really ‘argumentative’, just pissed (not at you, just the world in general).
Yes, yes, yes…however, in our house and circle of people we are principle oriented and not rule driven. Respect, Honesty and such…It’s not respectful to hit another child, even if you are pissed off at her/him — turn your head and scream dude. Model compassion and empathy for the hitting child by making sure the ‘wounded’ child is alright and then turn around and validate the hitter’s feelings of frustration or anger and offer a more respectful and less hurtful alternative. No one says, “hitting isn’t allowed” in this scenario, but it happens from time to time. The point is, we don’t hit one another and we act in a way that is in keeping with our principles. This modeled behavior is aped by children as they are always watching and listening to us to catch cues as to how to interact with their Universe.
In due time, they start to see that certain actions can hurt someone, such as hitting and are able to stop themselves or apologize and make sure the other person is ok — just like we have modeled. And it’s already being observed in most of the children in our group from about 4yrs old and up.
Sleep schedules and eating schedules aren’t used to keep someone from hurting a tribe, they are used to make living with a child more convenient for the adults. By making a child adhere to a sleep/eat schedule you are telling that child that they can not tell for themselves when they are hungry or tired and you are basically telling them that their own body’s clues are wrong and that they should listen to an outside source (adult, authority, their neighbor, whoever), to figure out when they are tired and hungry. I my opinion and experience, these kinds of methods cause children to be LESS self-reliant and to look towards authority on things when they shouldn’t have to. Not to mention, we have enough problems with children and obesity and all that it carries with it — I want my child to be able to listen to his body unhindered and know what it is telling him…he’s not my own personal Pavlov’s dog.
I think the only children who just run out in the street are those that are never really told what can happen if they do so and are those who are probably never ‘allowed’ to run free anywhere. So, I can see why a child who is contained most days would see a vast parking lot or endless stretch of road and equate it with freedom and happiness and want to run free…hell, I feel like that sometimes! We ‘required’ that E hold our hand for awhile, but it really didn’t make sense…it was explained to him that it can be absolutely deadly for him to run out without looking for moving cars and making sure someone nearby can see him running out…now he runs ahead and stops at the crossing/curb and waits for us slow pokes to catch up…sometimes he holds a hand while crossing and sometimes he doesn’t, but he never runs out in the street and encourages other children around him to not do it and explains why.
I think modeling what your community/village/tribe/circle has for goals and principles is the right thing to do…but coercing a child to act in a way or live their lives in a way, which makes them as convenient as possible for you, is wrong. I know when I am hungry and my son knows when he is hungry. I might disagree that 4 am (not all nights!) is a legitimate time to go to sleep, but I am sure as hell am not dealing with the trauma and fall out from enforcing some arbitrary sleep schedule. He still sleeps, I still sleep (and way before him most nights) and we both wake up and live life together. Does it make life inconvenient sometimes, well yeah, but life isn’t always rainbows and cupcakes…I know E doesn’t like to go grocery shopping and be inconvenienced by it, but he realizes that sometimes for the betterment of everyone in the house, he has to go and he realizes too that he sure enjoys the outcome of grocery shopping — a house full of fantastic food (strawberries, being the best when in season)!
It’s a partnership. I try to think about every situation from his point of view and before I say or do most things, I try to ask myself, “would I say or do this to my husband or friends?”. Of course there of those not so perfect days, which are full of apologies from me and make up hugs and kisses. We are ALL living and learning, but without ‘rules’, rather principles or goals we strive for.
Comment by michele james-parham — May 19, 2008 @ 11:53 am
Quote::I might disagree that 4 am (not all nights!) is a legitimate time to go to sleep, but I am sure as hell am not dealing with the trauma and fall out from enforcing some arbitrary sleep schedule.::
So, do you allow your child to do what he wants to benefit him, or you?
There is no trauma or fallout in enforcing a sleep schedule, in fact if you look at science (and, by the way, natural law which dictates that we, humans, must be awake for day time for various reasons, and sleep at night, otherwise we’d be nocturnal by design), a constant, and consistent sleep schedule benefits the health of all humans. It has nothing to do with societal norms, societal norms have been built around the necessity of sleep patterns, not the other way around.
Besides that fact - we don’t live in a world that caters to Anarchists and/or those of us who live on the fringe. We are also responsible for preparing our children to be able to function in the world we live in, not the world we want them to live in. Unfortunately, we live in a world that operates during the day, and requires our full attention, and also limits us as to when we can eat, sleep, or do business.
That said, creating a routine for your child has been shown - scientifically speaking - to be beneficial for your child. That doesn’t mean you have to force the kid to do anything. I don’t force punky to do much of anything at all. I say “it’s lunchtime” She says “OK”. Stopping and having a schedule that revolves around her needs is certainly not convenient for me, either.
I would much rather prefer to wake up later than 5:30 am (Punky does not sleep in past that, no matter what I want) not have to deal with cooking a healthy breakfast at all, as I don’t eat breakfast, not having to stop a day full of work and errands to sit down for a decent lunch and then breaking again for dinner at 5:30 PM. The going into bedtime routine at 6 or 7 PM.
However, the alternative to not having that schedule was horribly bad for Punky. She was constantly over tired, as not setting up a schedule meant she resisted the need for sleep, no matter how badly her body needed it (She once stayed awake for a week straight, by her choice - that is NOT healthy) and she was in poor health because her lack of sleep plus awkward eating schedule constantly made her sick.
As a parent, I can’t allow that to happen. If your child can function perfectly fine with a 4 am bedtime, that’s great. The rest of the world isn’t that kind of exception to the rule. Although I wonder how he acts when you have to wake him up to run whatever errands you have to run, which only occur during business hours, which happens to be daytime.
That said, creating and enforcing rules is NOT about convenience for the parent. It is much, much easier to just let your child do whatever he or she wants, than to have to say no, and provide supervision, and constantly reinforce whatever you’d like to call it - rules, principles, morals….
Comment by Anok — May 19, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
We are a family of night owls and most of the people associate with tend to shift their schedules in a more night owl way.
I am by no means a martyr on my child’s behalf if that’s what you are asking…we both experience situations which are not pleasant due to timing or simply the task at hand. I don’t ‘let’ my child do whatever he wants to make my life easier — ha! It’s actually rather difficult at times to live in a household where everyone is a truly autonomous individual! But, we are ALL brought back down to a common goal/need and that is to live in harmony. We all understand that our freedom ends where another person’s begins.
E is well informed about things that have to be accomplished the next day and that some things have to be done at a certain time. He knows what I mean when I will have to wake him up, because no one will be here to stay with him. He *usually* decides it’s best to go to sleep earlier those nights. This is how we have always lived our life and will continue until it either doesn’t work or we naturally find ourselves in another rhythm.
I’ve been asked before how we ‘get’ E to sleep in and not wake us up at crazy-ass hours in the morning. I simply reply that we don’t force or imply that 7 (or insert whatever for their child) is bedtime. E sleeps on average 10 hrs…I can’t imagine forcing that 10 hours to start at 7 or 8 or 9…I’m not going to get up at 5AM because I have unnecessarily put myself in that position. If you enforce a bedtime and you want your child to be awake at 10 am and they sleep 10 hours, then it makes sense to make their bedtime midnight (not that I’m abdicating for bedtimes)! Ok, so it might not be that easy, but seriously, if we force a child to bed early, then we can’t really bitch about being woken up early.
E has also learned the natural consequence that if he sleeps past a certain time, then their are certain things he will miss and he’s been upset and learned from this. Going to do and see certain things/people can not be accomplished later in the day sometimes and he adjusts his sleep or suffers the consequence…he’s choosing here, not me.
Why should I tell my son when he is hungry? I don’t usually know when he is hungry unless he informs me.
Comment by michele james-parham — May 19, 2008 @ 12:52 pm
Punky wakes up with the sun regardless of what time she went to bed - hence the 7pm bedtime. That way, she gets the sleep she needs. I don’t make her go to sleep arbitrarily, I have a set bedtime so that I know she will get enough sleep. Otherwise, it is harmful to her. Besides that, what exactly is there for a young child to do after dark? I mean, really?
Although I still have a hard time believing that E simply learns life lessons that young child aren’t psychologically prepared to comprehend in just a short time and a few experiences. Children don’t actually work that way - but if he does, he is not the norm.
Punky’s eating schedule was derived by when she is hungry on a regular basis, not my schedule. That schedule, by the way, has changed over time, and adjusted itself according to age. But, every morning between 7 am and 8 am, Punky is hungry. Again at about 10:30 am for a snack, and around 1 pm for lunch.
If I try and stray from that schedule, guess what, Punky doesn’t eat - and everyone is miserable. I eat on my own schedule, save for dinner time. But as an adult - I full well know the digestive consequences of an irregular diet, and accept whatever consequences come my way because of it. (same goes for sleeping, activity etc..)
Punky is a child, and does not understand that, and therefore cannot make informed decisions about meals, sleeping, activities and whathaveyou. Thats why I’m there. That’s ma’ job as a parent. By the way, even if E makes a decision to stay up late when he knows he has to be up early, you have to ask yourself if he really understands what the actual consequences of his actions are? Physically and mentally speaking sleep deprivation is serious business, and causes all manner of health problems. So he may initially react to a lack of sleep as something undesirable, but that doesn’t mean he actually understands WHY he feels that way.
I regularly watch a friend’s child…and I observe this child closely. This family takes permissiveness to a whole new level. In fact, there are literally no rules - no principles - no talks and lesson. They simply coexist with the kid, and provide him with food and shelter (and hugs and toys). No schedule of any sort, no properly stocked pantry with healthy food choices - in fact nothing… they enforce and teach nothing. It’s about as free as a toddler can get without being abandoned and left to his own devices entirely. There is absolutely zero authority.
The child, unfortunately, is suffering because of it. He is underdeveloped, both physically and mentally. He has no concept of any principles, or rules, or any kind of beneficial behavior of any sort. He has no fear of anything, and no respect for anything, or anyone.
He is truly a wild child. Without any sort of structure I have found that he is destructive, mean, and violent. (I mean, REALLY…it’s bad). He is chronically overtired, underfed and nutritionally devoid, incapable of direct communication (or not really incapable, but more unwilling), and generally speaking is a HUGE problem , and is destructive to himself, and to others. This kind of parental permissiveness seems extreme - but there is a whole group of young parents out there falling into this category. When they hear things like “rules are oppressive” and “you don’t need rules to raise a child” and “kids know better than the parents” ^that is the outcome.
And it isn’t good.
However, it seems to me, via our conversations that you do, in fact support the benefit of rules (with certain exceptions) - you just call it something else. Which doesn’t make any sense to me, but there you have it.
Comment by Anok — May 19, 2008 @ 1:26 pm
“This family takes permissiveness to a whole new level. In fact, there are literally no rules - no principles - no talks and lesson. They simply coexist with the kid, and provide him with food and shelter (and hugs and toys). No schedule of any sort, no properly stocked pantry with healthy food choices - in fact nothing… they enforce and teach nothing. It’s about as free as a toddler can get without being abandoned and left to his own devices entirely. There is absolutely zero authority.”
“The child, unfortunately, is suffering because of it. He is underdeveloped, both physically and mentally. He has no concept of any principles, or rules, or any kind of beneficial behavior of any sort. He has no fear of anything, and no respect for anything, or anyone.”
This sounds like neglect to me…but thats only from what you have told me and from how I view success. My son is happy, healthy and well-adjusted. He has his moments as well all do, but the above does not reflect our household, nor the household of anyone I even remotely know.
Comment by michele james-parham — May 19, 2008 @ 2:42 pm
I read this article today - and thought of our conversations. I thought you might like it.
http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/19053339.html
Comment by Anok — May 20, 2008 @ 10:32 am
Yep. I can relate…no strip searches during my schooling…well, actually they were allowed to do so, if your parent was notified. the cops were present and the school counselor was present!!! Crazy shit. But this article pretty much sums up my experience with public schools…except I picked up a nasty drug habit and still managed to be a straight A student! A caged rat…that sounds about right.
But what about all that fantastic socialization that I was able to take part in? Ha! Does it matter that I possibly could have been a ‘Columbine waiting to happen’? I hated just about everyone around me and thought of them as petty and having no idea what actually went on outside those walls — what really mattered. It was beyond angst, it was intelligence that had no real outlet, which I think can turn someone absolutely crazy.
But, school for me, was better than having to stay at home and deal with my parents’ issues and their constant berating of one another and me. So I didn’t bitch about school too much and was thankful for concurrent enrollment in college and EVERY non-sporting extracurricular activity. I rocked debate club, though art club I found artistic qualities in me that the schools had practically sucked out of me and I wowed fellow pseudo-intellectual students with my poetry in creative writing club, which was probably fueled by my drug habits! I think the socialization I took part in was grade A, don’t you…notice, most of the meaningful stuff happened AFTER school.
AFTER school, that’s where I actually learned shit, both good and bad! I read books AFTER school, I investigated things via the internet, I went outside and saw trees and animals and rode a bike (when I was allowed to by my over-controlling father). I wrote extensively in a journal and through creative writing. I did things in the community. I might have even really cared about a thing or two…oh, yeah becoming a midwife.
Comment by michele james-parham — May 20, 2008 @ 11:05 am
“However, it seems to me, via our conversations that you do, in fact support the benefit of rules (with certain exceptions) - you just call it something else. Which doesn’t make any sense to me, but there you have it.”
Anok, here is a link that might better explain what I mean (and many others) about living by Principles and not being driven by rules. http://sandradodd.com/rules and http://sandradodd.com/rulebound
Comment by michele james-parham — May 20, 2008 @ 3:43 pm